tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post6347304758264528553..comments2023-08-10T20:27:34.828+05:30Comments on FairyTales: Hinduism & HindutvaUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-47896343875609641552012-10-20T00:15:51.403+05:302012-10-20T00:15:51.403+05:30>Arya Samaj movement eg, there was an attempt t...>Arya Samaj movement eg, there was an attempt to be more like the West<<br />But I am sure most Southies canno differentiate between AryaSamaj BrahmaSamaj and who the founders were ..... lol<br />>Gita/Vedas were promoted to that status<<br />This is not correct. Vedas were always held as Apaurusheyas by hindus from their inception with strict strictures against it. There were noises (some years back) when a Telugu-Sanskrit scholars Sri DAsharathi RangAcharya undertook the monumental task of translating the four vedas into Telugu. <br />so they promoted Manusmruti<br />As the critiques of hindu-bashers says, people even donot know that one ManuSmriti was in existence till hte Britishers dug it out for their perusal, yet it becomes a convenient stick to beat around hindus. One more point is that among the tens of Smritis we have, ManuSmriti is deemed to be apt for Satya Yuga, not for Kali. Anyway, Hindus have thrown it out regardless of its merits/demerits for good<br />The present internet hindu generation is influenced by all the above<br />I can only take televised versions of the epics as being the important influential factors of the present generation. As I said, ASamaj has no influence in South and may be in the East.<br />But those of us who are used to certain liberal traditions from our childhood are not going to surrender them to some hypersensitive persons who find "muh mein ram, bagal mein churi" offensive<br />Most of us are from such backgrounds, Saroja. We too used to enjoy jokes or cartoons on Gods/Rishis etc. But the issue is with the selective secularism as has been pointed by many on these forums themselves. Now, I think, we've atleast diagnosed the disease, lets apply proper medication<br />SANGEETHA<br />CHENNAI, INDIA<br /> <br />Sangeetha,<br />Thnks for your explanations. I want to make some observations.<br />1. There are several books which have been very influential. e.g. Bible, Quran etc. How many people have read them? Millions. Now there are books like Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, which have left their mark in history. How many people read it? Many bought it, presented it to others, but how many actually read it? I am sure thousands had read Das Kapital, but at height of Nazi success also I wonder if even a hundred had read Mein Kampf. These books in that sense were some sort of badges or banners which stood for certain spirit of the time.<br />2. Vedas/ Gita in that sense were never widely read/recited. What were popular were the epics in their various versions and puranic kathas. <br />Now, I think, we've atleast diagnosed the disease<br />I still don't think so. But it is a continuing process right? I can see the disease but not any satisfactory diagnosis.<br />R. SAROJA<br />BOMBAY, INDIAR. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-10055444829028631232012-10-20T00:13:32.835+05:302012-10-20T00:13:32.835+05:30Saroja,
Its important for us to understand the con...Saroja,<br />Its important for us to understand the contemporary social settings for the birth of an organization like Arya Samaj. With the kind of vicious hate propaganda conceived and perpetuated by foreign missionaries on Hindus and its traditions, it was abound to produce Arya Samaj's. Gurudev RAvindranath Tagore's "Gora" provides a beautiful insight into this aspect of despicable contempt the neo-converts held for hindus. It took a Vivekananda/DayanandaSaraswati and other such highly revered reformers to revive people's faith in their religion and traditions. There were retributive attacks on Christianity from SDS, ChattambiSwami, SriNArayanaGuru - but none hate-filled calumny as the missionaries' themselves. If we read SDS's SatyarthaPrakasha, in attemptig to critiquing MAxMueller, he interprets "Bradhna" differently (I respectfully invite Mr.JustJoking to correct me if Iam wrong here)<br />Coming to the present context, yes, there were polemical exchanges between Jainism/Buddhism/Hindus. But the commies pit non-hindus against hindus, underplay non-hindu acts of voilence and overplay the hindus' to bring in balance vis-a-vis Islamic atrocities. For ex, Buddhism largely disappeared from the scene in AP as a major patronized religion by the ruling dynasties with the advent of VajrayAna from 6 CE. People held Buddhism with utter contemtp for its practises of this mode that the term Swaminis - a respectful addressing of a Buddhist nuns - had degenerated into a term equivalent to prostitutes ("SAni" in the parlance which is derogatory) - Acharya Khandavelli Lakshmi Ranjanam. And there were kings such as VeeraPurushaDatta of Ishvaku dynasty (claimed to descendants of Rama's dynasty) whose Shasanas have depicted the king with his leg resting on ShivaLinga or the RashtraKUtAs' (Jain rulers) contempt for hindus or the Kalabhras of the "black-era" of TN. Inspite of all these, hindus are pitted against the "peaceful" sects of Jainism/Buddhism and show the few iconoclastic incidents of hindus.....phew...I think you understood what I meant to say. This selective suppression of facts and beating hindus with these "Brahminvaad/Hindutva/RightWingCommunal" stick definitely does create the above kind of reactions from the hindus. right ? ITs no wonder. R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-65941222702232780062012-10-20T00:06:46.000+05:302012-10-20T00:06:46.000+05:30>It cannot be one rule for Abhrahamic religions... >It cannot be one rule for Abhrahamic religions with their huge lists of taboo subjects and another rule for the Eastern religions. This is what infuriates Hindus online<<br /><br />I am somewhat familiar with ancient Tamil epics. Most of them are highly polemical, jainism vs buddhism vs saivism etc. Then there is the legend of the poet Nakkeerar, who finds fault with Lord Shiva himself. In my extended family, I have seen playful banters between the shaivites, vaishnavites and atheists, which outside can trigger a riot in today's world. Now all these banters and polemics are word plays and there is no disrespect or intention to insult in them. On the contrary, there is active respect for other's view point and not mere tolerance. I think I come from an average Indian family comfortable in both urban and rural settings. <br />I am willing to be corrected about my understanding of history, but here it goes- Being under colonial rule brought certain changes perception. Arya Samaj movement eg, there was an attempt to be more like the West. No single Holy Book, so Vedas were promoted to that status. When Britishers tried to codify personal laws, there was no canonical source, only customary practice, so they promoted Manusmruti & Sharia laws for hindus and muslims respectively.<br />With freedom movement came a lot of puritanism, with Gandhian emphasis on celibacy. In 1980s when Ramayana & Mahabharata were telecast, There were lawsuits in courts over depiction of different episodes from the epics, as if there were only one way that was correct. <br />The present internet hindu generation is influenced by all the above. But those of us who are used to certain liberal traditions from our childhood are not going to surrender them to some hypersensitive persons who find "muh mein ram, bagal mein churi" offensive.<br />R. SAROJA<br />BOMBAY, INDIA<br /><br />D-2/77 correction <br />2nd para "Vedas were promoted to that status" should read Gita/Vedas were promoted to that status.<br />R. SAROJA<br />BOMBAY, INDIA<br /> <br />R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-1007270068461054622012-10-19T23:55:47.644+05:302012-10-19T23:55:47.644+05:30From earlier posts --
I think in Indian context, ...From earlier posts --<br /><br />I think in Indian context, about criticizing Ramayana or Islam, let me quote Madhu Kishwar in some other context but which fits the bill here<br />One has to “earn” the right to criticize and point out other people’s flaws. That comes only when they perceive you as a caring well-wisher not as an arrogant imperious outsider in the tradition set by our erstwhile colonial masters.<br />So AK Ramanujam's 300 Ramayanas pass the test which is why so many hindus support it, And by and large the criticism of Muslims for Azad Maidan violence was well received, leading to introspection.<br />-------------------------<br /><br />Mr. Sardesai's most talked about tweet "Subh gayatri mantra ..." was also quite hateful.<br />Come on, it meant the same as 'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' - Saroja<br />Dear Saroja,<br />Just replace Gayatri mantra with other religious texts or sayings, then you'll see secus going hammer and tongs at it ! I'm not sure what Madhu Kishwar would say about a lousy comment as Rajdeep's !!<br />As an aside, to my knowledge, Gayatri mantra is a Rk from RgVeda set to Gayatri meter dedicated to Savitr (I think). It could be interesting to know its transformation to its current dedication<br />SANGEETHA<br />CHENNAI, INDIA<br />-----------------------------------<br />Dear Sangeetha,<br />I think we can all do well with less religion. 'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' is not a statement on religion but on hypocrisy esp. of religious kind. About a quarter century back, I remember someone writing that it is less contentious and more fruitful if people take on bigots from their own community, it being easier to face backlash. Fresh memories of Shah banu case, essentially having to do with gender injustice, being twisted into confrontation between two communities has made people like me wary. Rajdeep became a journalist about the same time. Muslims like Asghar Ali Engineer , Javed Anand do take on bigots from their community.<br />R. SAROJA<br />BOMBAY, INDIA<br />---------------------------------------<br />I think we can all do well with less religion<br />I think, its not for us to have a say on what others should do. Its the choice of the people. Just as you feel, science can answer everything from subatomic particles to the universe, people believe in religion. Nothing wrong as along as they are not offending any one/anything<br />'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' is not a statement on religion but on hypocrisy esp. of religious kind<br />The proverb or its equivalent in various Indian languages doesnt have any special religious connotation addressing the religious bigotry. ITs about the pretentious demeanour like the paid media lecturing us on the virtues of unbiased reporting. However, lots of hindus do have deep respect for Gayatri mantra just as muslims or christians holding their books in high esteem. My simple arg - would Rajdeep say the same reg muslim religious bigotry ? You know the answer. This is what I've been pointing to<br />t is less contentious and more fruitful if people take on bigots from their own community<br />Exactly. The preception/view of outsider many times leads to people not taking the seriously and instead backfiring. Secus belong to a different clan than what an ordinary hindu thinks. But will they stop lecturing and heaping abuses or making mockery of hindus for their beliefs - a la Ram setu/Ramayana. Fair, no? <br />Fresh memories of Shah banu case, essentially having to do with gender injustice, being twisted into confrontation between two communities has made people like me wary<br />But ultimately, did it help the likes of Shah Bano ? I am not sure<br />SANGEETHA<br />CHENNAI, INDIA<br /><br /><br /><br />R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-83316951822491233782012-10-19T23:34:13.466+05:302012-10-19T23:34:13.466+05:30On Caste and casteism --
http://www.outlookindia....On Caste and casteism --<br /><br />http://www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx?typ=100&val=280966&source=web&commentid=385510#385510<br /><br />Please see comments #119,#120,#133,#135,#145R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-57571792553884612032012-10-19T22:53:38.455+05:302012-10-19T22:53:38.455+05:30This comment has been removed by the author.R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-41628360595412166622012-10-18T21:02:06.897+05:302012-10-18T21:02:06.897+05:30Kamal Hassan name might be an incorrect informatio...Kamal Hassan name might be an incorrect information on wikipedia just like Simon Bolivar and inquisition.<br /><br />The name originated from a friend of his father, Yaakob Hassan, a Muslim freedom fighter who spent time with Kamal Haasan's father while imprisoned by the British. Yaakob Hassan had protected Srinivasan from other prisoners who hated the Brahmins. Later, he paid tribute to his friend by incorporating part of his name into his sons’ names.[82]<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Haasan#Religious_views<br /><br />Now check this interview of Kamal Hassan with Karan Thapar where he blames his ex congressman father for this twist. Don't blame me for that.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A01JVLKHbTM<br /><br />when you talk about Hinduism, i have written before that it is not an organized religion. In Kashmir, Brahmins eat beef which is proscribed in Hinduism. In South India, there has been a discrimination against Brahmins and your so called stereotypes prove that. <br /><br />There was no Arya samaj movement in South India but there was Bhakti movement there. <br /><br />Unlike Sanskrit authors, mainly well-educated members of the Brahman class whose learning and status shaped their outlook, bhakti poets were not restricted to a single language or class. They brought to their poetry a familiarity with folk religion unknown or ignored in the Sanskrit texts. The use of the spoken language, even though it was formalized, made possible the expression of an unmediated vision that needed no further context; thus, the lyrics are intensely personal and precise. These works illustrate the localistic and reformist tendency evidenced throughout India in the vernacular literatures, especially in Tamil, Bengali, and Hindi.<br /><br />This was a reform movement within Hinduism. <br />http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/266312/Hinduism/8995/Bhakti-movements<br /><br /><br />Huntington and Lewis. They are called scholars who spent a life time in their studies. I mean no offence but you are no one to deride a guy because you don't like him. abhishek shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16951793106367953892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-5906743487483344302012-10-18T20:10:03.114+05:302012-10-18T20:10:03.114+05:30What is offensive about AK Ramanujan? Is that an A...What is offensive about AK Ramanujan? Is that an Arya Samajist taking offence?R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-58002886303100450162012-10-18T19:58:06.526+05:302012-10-18T19:58:06.526+05:30Uff sanskritization! I have seen the term honorary...Uff sanskritization! I have seen the term honorary Brahmin used (and not as a compliment) when someone indulges in activities seen more brahminical, like too much temple going or fasting etc. Yes the hindutva guys had tried this by having Ganesh festivals Bombay style, taking processions through muslim areas and shouting provocative slogans in Madras. Now everyone is tired of it, it did not click. <br />In TN, there is a move towards the ‘Tamil Hertage” etc, but practically Salwar Kamiz has won over for its convenience. But that is not seen as sanskritization, And Brahmins are discovering the taste of NV food. And everywhere there are intercaste marriages, no opposition from parents. <br />North & West need to reform. Khap panchayats and Modi, To her credit, Mayawati made English available to SC which Mulayam had tried to bury. Do not underestimate the mischief done to hindu women also by organisations like Ram Sene. <br />I have not lived outside urban areas in North or West, so my comments on Caste in North will be worthless.I will expand on AS and revivalism in a day or two. I have posted from another thread on freedom of speech where Sangeetha makes some interesting observations.<br />R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-57602165567309365742012-10-18T19:57:05.031+05:302012-10-18T19:57:05.031+05:30I have never known anyone pontificate with such ap...I have never known anyone pontificate with such aplomb as you do over things that they are completely ignorant about. .. To start from the end, there is no Tamil actor by the name Kamal Hassan. As you might have noticed, most people from TN do not use a surname. So a Tamil actor’s name Kamalahasan (pronounced ka-ma-la-haa-san ) (here the hasan part has the same etymology as hasini in Suhasini, (pronounced su-haa-si-ni) which you would acknowledge is of Sanskrit origin ), the name got split into Kamal Hassan by north Indian Press, when he was acting in Hindi movies. Where do you get your information from? <br />Caste hindus are less in number and Sudras are more in number because the pyramid is narrower at the top. Now in Tamil Nadu, the number of Sudras for all I know may be more than 95%. I am visualising caste hindus fighting and dying for sudras. That way all sudras would have died of laughing.Most of the Sudras are OBCs of course. I guess, whosoever was the other, outsider, became a sudra, so high number of sudras in TN. I come from southern TN which has small land holdings like Kerala. So there is no dominant class or caste. Also, Church has a presence and had a greater presence in the past. Whatever they did, they built lot of schools especially for poor. TN is a very urban state. Every rural area has an urban hub close to it. The first major place (in the past, during British period) where a person faced discrimination was in the office. Here Brahmins do not cut a good figure. They have a reputation for being petty and small minded, and whenever there is stereotyping, the stereotyped tend to behave in a way to prove the point. Anyway, the British had a reservation policy so that the Brahmins do not fill all posts with their kith and kin.There was no AS in the South, because the Britishers were not necessarily seen as all evil. Eg the Justice Party was pro British. The emphasis was on modern learning and moving up . Now northern TN with large land holdings have seen caste atrocities and caste clashes between OBC and SC, both sudras. <br />AS was in that sense a revivalist movement as discussed in the thread with Sangeetha. So in that sense both hindu revivalism which gave birth to hindutva and Islamic revivalism leading to Muslim league asking for partition have taken birth together and grown together in the north and west. I know you have fallen in love with Huttington and Lewis. No problem. You can start anywhere when you are analysing. But you should question your assumptions<br />I do not know if you realise how offensive it is to equate hindutva and Hinduism or Islam and Islamism. That closes the door for reforms. But I do welcome debates with you because all my friends are seculars. Even if you torture us to death. We have seen and experienced the ugly side of hindutva, and do not claim the credit for containing it comes from hindus in the sense of hindutva. It comes from the much maligned seculars. Who may be hindus or muslims or atheists. And Cong. Has not practiced secularism for a long long time. <br />R. Sarojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378424994579493457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-120950822966315884.post-4982176963723725892012-10-18T14:17:30.464+05:302012-10-18T14:17:30.464+05:30Hinduism is not an organized religion per se. It i...Hinduism is not an organized religion per se. It is a Dharma - a social conduct unlike organized Abraham religion where there is no place for proselytization. Judaism has no religious proselytization but that is for a different reason.<br /><br />If you talk about caste and discrimination in Hinduism, I tend to agree with you. But while in Hinduism, the caste is regarded as a problem, there are castes in Islam as well. The people with Turkic/ Afghan/ Persian heritage are ashraf and rest are non ashraf. However, there's no question of caste in Islam as it is not mentioned in holy books. <br /><br />The change is caste equations also came from Arya Samaj itself. They were the ones who refused to belief in cast and it is called arya samaj marriage where people of different castes can get married. Narendra Modi is a Shudra to say the least but he is there as the face of Hindutva. <br /><br />when we talk about caste in Hinduism, you miss out out Sanskritization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritization<br />It is a caste mobility which is not present in any other religion. <br /><br />i have seen many people in India who think that caste means discrimination. This might be true cause of discriminating attitude of caste hindus but the other castes have also benefited from caste system. Wonder why there are few less caste hindus compared to other castes. I think the best way to look at it is through hinduism in some other part of the world like Bali. In Bali, sudras are 90 percent of population because the caste hindus were fighting wars all over the history. This is the same case in India. Why are Sudras in majority in India can be explained by this reason. <br /><br />The change in caste is going to happen. You are from Tamil Nadu and you know how many caste Hindus are there in the state. Kamal Hassan is a Brahmin and his name tells what exactly is wrong in terms of caste relations in TN. His father was arrested during indian freedom struggle and was almost killed but saved by a Muslim prisoner from the so called depressed caste people. he named his son after the muslim prisoner. <br /><br /> <br />abhishek shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16951793106367953892noreply@blogger.com