Hinduism & Hindutva

36/D-14 SEP 02, 2012 02:57 AM

26/D-183 saroja It might be difficult to explain Breivik's thought 1518 page manifesto in brevity. For the starters, he blames the cultural marxists from hiding the truth. If you take it in indian perspective, the truth is deliberatlely obfuscated right in ncert books. Why is there no almost no mention of persecution of Hindus during Muslim ruling. Now check this with one wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus As per Breivik, he was more affected by truth when he read about Muslim history from wikipedia.  The journalists in India and world over in the main stream media try to portray the world with the same cultural marxist persepective. For them India is the same secular country of NCERT.  Ms Ghose finds it intellectual to support 300 Ramayans but won't utter a word about prophet muhammad. Most of the Muslims find Sahih Bukhari authentic and they believe that Aisha was 6 when she married the prophet. But Ms Ghose can't say a word cause abusing Ram won't get her a fatwa and speaking about the historical aspect of prophet might cause riots. Well, that does make her a hypocrite.  Inside her TV studio, she is the queen answerable to only some American masters. On Twitter, when she doesn't answer, she gets the more difficult questions. Now social media is a necessity for media houses for economic reasons. She gets the hate mail which sometimes can be abusive. Even Poonam Pandey gets abusive people.  I really appreciate Rajdeep Sardesai for actually being bold enough to take the questions unlike Vinod Mehta or Pranab Roy. Look how he answers them. http://www.niticentral.com/2012/08/tyranny-of-national-media.html RISHI VYAS KANGRA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (10)  |   DISLIKE (2)  |   REPORT ABUSE

40/D-18 SEP 02, 2012 04:29 AM

Rishi Vyas, Thank you for your explanations.Looks like what seems fringe doesn't take too long to become mainstream -  Richard Millet, a respected French writer and editor, has sparked controversy for his comments on Anders Breivik, the Norwegian mass killer, whom he described as "without doubt what Norway deserves". Mr Millet, who says he has read all 1,500 pages of Breivik's online manifesto, insists that he does not approve of the Norwegian gunman's crimes. However, he praised Breivik's writing and cry of hatred for social democracy, immigration and multiculturalism. "Breivik is without doubt what Norway deserves," wrote Millet in an 18-page pamphlet. He is "as much a child of a broken family as of an ideological and racial fracture caused by immigration from outside Europe over the last 20 years," added Mr Millet, who has edited several award-winning books in France. www.khilafah.com/index.php/news-watch/europe/14578-french-writer-says-anders-breivik-was-what-norway-deserves Johan Galtung, Norwegian sociologist nicknamed the “father of peace studies,” made anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli remarks while lecturing at the University of Oslo, in an article published afterward in the Norwegian press and in an interview with Haaretz that followed. ......He pointed out that one of the factors behind the anti-Semitic sentiment that led to Auschwitz was the fact that Jews held influential positions in German society. Galtung also recommended reading “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” – one of the most popular anti-Semitic texts in the world. Professor Galtung, 82-years-old, is one of the founders of the discipline called “Peace Studies and Conflict Resolution,” as well as a founder of the international Peace Research Institute in Oslo. He is considered well-respected sociological researcher, has been awarded many prizes, and is the author of over a thousand articles and over a hundred books. Some of his work has also been translated into Hebrew. www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/pioneer-of-global-peace-studies-hints-at-link-between-norway-massacre-and-mossad-1.427385 I think in Indian context, about criticizing Ramayana or Islam, let me quote Madhu Kishwar in some other context but which fits the bill here One has to “earn” the right to criticize and point out other people’s flaws. That comes only when they perceive you as a caring well-wisher not as an arrogant imperious outsider in the tradition set by our erstwhile colonial masters. So AK Ramanujam's 300 Ramayanas pass the test which is why so many hindus support it, And by and large the criticism of Muslims for Azad Maidan violence was well received, leading to introspection. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (9)  |   DISLIKE (6)  |   REPORT ABUSE

44/D-35 SEP 02, 2012 10:49 AM

"Hatespeak on social media, not social media itself, is the real enemy of a liberal democracy." Why is hate speech the real enemy of a liberal democracy? Hate speech strengths liberal democracy because it allows for what someone may consider evil and vile and allows to be dealth and handled in a civilized manner. The real need in India is for "rule of law" to work. You ought to be able to take people on for libel and hope that rule of the land will prevail in a timely and effective manner. "Hate speech cannot be dressed up as free speech." Hate speech is part of free speech it doesn't have to dressed. Free speech must be absolute freedom. The test is always when there is something vile and evil being said and what we do with it. Otherwise, everyone claims free speech in theory - the worst despots and dictators. "Free speech is the right to canvass for a political cause, the right to criticise the government. Governed by Art 19 of the Constitution, it’s a legally defined freedom. Free speech is not the right to say what you want." I guess I wasn't aware we had such a narrow definition of it. I guess then we really don't have Freedom of Speech and Expression. "If social media is a gigantic public highway, all those using it must not only follow rules but also accept the inevitability of some surveillance." Sure .... monitor hate speech. I have always maintained free speech is abolute and I would much rather know the evil and vile things in someone's head rather it stay buried in the head. At least if it is out in the open, it can be tracked and actions taken before something bad happens. The summary says "Right-wing hatespeak on social media needs to be monitored". Why just Right wing - it should be any wing - hatespeak/speech should be tracked and monitored. Our real challenge in looking for censorship and bans is because we are not able to fix the hard problem of "rule of law" functioning. ARUN MAHESHWARI BANGALORE, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (13)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE

48/D-44 SEP 02, 2012 11:35 AM

>>I would much rather know the evil and vile things in someone's head rather it stay buried in the head. At least if it is out in the open, it can be tracked and actions taken before something bad happens. What you are saying is very true. It is true as long as the evil that is coming out of someone's head can be tackled by others. Now how many people are willing to tackle hatred coming out of someone else? They may just want to carry on with their ordinary humdrum life.  If evil is going to garner all attention, only evil may come out. Any way I agree with you. As of now in India right/left wing ideologies  are not very strong like 10 or 20 years back and can be tackled.  You know the word internet community - for many people, net is playing the role of a family. To take an analogy from the field of medicine, inflammation is an attempt by the body to fight infection and without inflammation, wounds and infections would never heal. But chronic inflammation in itself is a malady which turns on the body itself and physicians routinely prescribe anti-inflammatory medication at acute injuries. The world is not monolithic. There are wounds, some fresh and superficial, and will be cured by body's inflammatory reactions. But there are chronic wounds which benefit by suppression of inflammation.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (3)  |   DISLIKE (6)  |   REPORT ABUSE

49/D-48 SEP 02, 2012 11:42 AM

>If evil is going to garner all attention, only evil may come out. It is not the attention but the nature of attention that will determine the outcome? R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (6)  |   REPORT ABUSE

60/D-94 SEP 02, 2012 07:15 PM

Mr. Sardesai's most talked about tweet "Subh gayatri mantra ..." was also quite hateful. Come on, it meant the same as 'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (4)  |   DISLIKE (14)  |   REPORT ABUSE

61/D-99 SEP 02, 2012 07:33 PM

Mr. Sardesai's most talked about tweet "Subh gayatri mantra ..." was also quite hateful. Come on, it meant the same as 'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' - Saroja Dear Saroja, Just replace Gayatri mantra with other religious texts or sayings, then you'll see secus going hammer and tongs at it ! I'm not sure what Madhu Kishwar would say about a lousy comment as Rajdeep's !! As an aside, to my knowledge, Gayatri mantra is a Rk from RgVeda set to Gayatri meter dedicated to Savitr (I think). It could be interesting to know its transformation to its current dedication SANGEETHA CHENNAI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (11)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE

63/D-106 SEP 02, 2012 08:00 PM

Dear Sangeetha, I think we can all do well with less religion.  'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' is not a statement on religion but on hypocrisy esp. of religious kind. About a quarter century back, I remember someone writing that it is  less contentious and more fruitful if people take on bigots from their own community, it being easier to face backlash. Fresh memories of Shah banu case, essentially having to do with gender injustice, being twisted into confrontation between two communities has made people like me wary. Rajdeep became a journalist about the same time. Muslims like Asghar Ali Engineer , Javed Anand do take on bigots from their community. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (10)  |   DISLIKE (8)  |   REPORT ABUSE

65/D-112 SEP 02, 2012 08:28 PM

I think we can all do well with less religion I think, its not for us to have a say on what others should do. Its the choice of the people. Just as you feel, science can answer everything from subatomic particles to the universe, people believe in religion. Nothing wrong as along as they are not offending any one/anything 'muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churi ' is not a statement on religion but on hypocrisy esp. of religious kind The proverb or its equivalent in various Indian languages doesnt have any special religious connotation addressing the religious bigotry. ITs about the pretentious demeanour like the paid media lecturing us on the virtues of unbiased reporting. However, lots of hindus do have deep respect for Gayatri mantra just as muslims or christians holding their books in high esteem. My simple arg - would Rajdeep say the same reg muslim religious bigotry ? You know the answer. This is what I've been pointing to t is less contentious and more fruitful if people take on bigots from their own community Exactly. The preception/view of outsider many times leads to people not taking the seriously and instead backfiring. Secus belong to a different clan than what an ordinary hindu thinks. But will they stop lecturing and heaping abuses or making mockery of hindus for their beliefs - a la Ram setu/Ramayana. Fair, no?  Fresh memories of Shah banu case, essentially having to do with gender injustice, being twisted into confrontation between two communities has made people like me wary But ultimately, did it help the likes of Shah Bano ? I am not sure SANGEETHA CHENNAI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (6)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE

77/D-2 SEP 03, 2012 12:33 AM	>It cannot be one rule for Abhrahamic religions with their huge lists of taboo subjects and another rule for the Eastern religions. This is what infuriates Hindus online. I am somewhat familiar with ancient Tamil epics. Most of them are highly polemical, jainism vs buddhism vs saivism etc. Then there is the legend of the poet Nakkeerar, who finds fault with Lord Shiva himself. In my extended family, I have seen playful banters between the shaivites, vaishnavites and atheists, which outside can trigger a riot in today's world. Now all these banters and polemics are word plays and there is no disrespect or intention to insult in them. On the contrary, there is active respect for other's view point and not mere tolerance. I think I come from an average Indian family comfortable in both urban and rural settings.  I am willing to be corrected about my understanding of history, but here it goes- Being under colonial rule brought certain changes perception. Arya Samaj movement eg, there was an attempt to be more like the West. No single Holy Book, so Vedas were promoted to that status. When Britishers tried to codify personal laws, there was no  canonical source, only customary practice, so they  promoted Manusmruti & Sharia laws for hindus and muslims respectively. With freedom movement came a lot of puritanism, with Gandhian emphasis on celibacy. In 1980s when Ramayana & Mahabharata were telecast, There were lawsuits in courts over depiction of different episodes from the epics, as if there were only one way that was correct.  The present internet hindu generation is influenced by all the above. But those of us who are used to certain liberal traditions from our childhood are not going to surrender them to some hypersensitive persons who find "muh mein ram, bagal mein churi" offensive. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (3)  |   DISLIKE (8)  |   REPORT ABUSE
78/D-3 SEP 03, 2012 12:34 AM	Sangeetha, >> Secus belong to a different clan than what an ordinary hindu thinks. I always thought that ordinary Hindus were basically secular. The Hindutvawadis, like the Islamists, belong to a different clan. ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (6)  |   DISLIKE (10)  |   REPORT ABUSE
79/D-4 SEP 03, 2012 12:50 AM	D-2/77 correction  2nd para "Vedas were promoted to that status" should read Gita/Vedas were promoted to that status. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (4)  |   REPORT ABUSE

83/D-35 SEP 03, 2012 09:29 AM

Sorry for this little digression. I hope our dear moddie will not delete this post.  Saroja, Its important for us to understand the contemporary social settings for the birth of an organization like Arya Samaj. With the kind of vicious hate propaganda conceived and perpetuated by foreign missionaries on Hindus and its traditions, it was abound to produce Arya Samaj's. Gurudev RAvindranath Tagore's "Gora" provides a beautiful insight into this aspect of despicable contempt the neo-converts held for hindus. It took a Vivekananda/DayanandaSaraswati and other such highly revered reformers to revive people's faith in their religion and traditions. There were retributive attacks on Christianity from SDS, ChattambiSwami, SriNArayanaGuru - but none hate-filled calumny as the missionaries' themselves. If we read SDS's SatyarthaPrakasha, in attemptig to critiquing MAxMueller, he interprets "Bradhna" differently (I respectfully invite Mr.JustJoking to correct me if Iam wrong here) Coming to the present context, yes, there were polemical exchanges between Jainism/Buddhism/Hindus. But the commies pit non-hindus against hindus, underplay non-hindu acts of voilence and overplay the hindus' to bring in balance vis-a-vis Islamic atrocities. For ex, Buddhism largely disappeared from the scene in AP as a major patronized religion by the ruling dynasties with the advent of VajrayAna from 6 CE. People held Buddhism with utter contemtp for its practises of this mode that the term Swaminis - a respectful addressing of a Buddhist nuns - had degenerated into a term equivalent to prostitutes ("SAni" in the parlance which is derogatory) - Acharya Khandavelli Lakshmi Ranjanam. And there were kings such as VeeraPurushaDatta of Ishvaku dynasty (claimed to descendants of Rama's dynasty) whose Shasanas have depicted the king with his leg resting on ShivaLinga or the RashtraKUtAs' (Jain rulers) contempt for hindus or the Kalabhras of the "black-era" of TN. Inspite of all these, hindus are pitted against the "peaceful" sects of Jainism/Buddhism and show the few iconoclastic incidents of hindus.....phew...I think you understood what I meant to say. This selective suppression of facts and beating hindus with these "Brahminvaad/Hindutva/RightWingCommunal" stick definitely does create the above kind of reactions from the hindus. right ? ITs no wonder.  Arya Samaj movement eg, there was an attempt to be more like the West But I am sure most Southies canno differentiate between AryaSamaj BrahmaSamaj and who the founders were ..... lol Gita/Vedas were promoted to that status This is not correct. Vedas were always held as Apaurusheyas by hindus from their inception with strict strictures against it. There were noises (some years back) when a Telugu-Sanskrit scholars Sri DAsharathi RangAcharya undertook the monumental task of translating the four vedas into Telugu.  so they promoted Manusmruti As the critiques of hindu-bashers says, people even donot know that one ManuSmriti was in existence till hte Britishers dug it out for their perusal, yet it becomes a convenient stick to beat around hindus. One more point is that among the tens of Smritis we have, ManuSmriti is deemed to be apt for Satya Yuga, not for Kali. Anyway, Hindus have thrown it out regardless of its merits/demerits for good The present internet hindu generation is influenced by all the above I can only take televised versions of the epics as being the important influential factors of the present generation. As I said, ASamaj has no influence in South and may be in the East. But those of us who are used to certain liberal traditions from our childhood are not going to surrender them to some hypersensitive persons who find "muh mein ram, bagal mein churi" offensive Most of us are from such backgrounds, Saroja. We too used to enjoy jokes or cartoons on Gods/Rishis etc. But the issue is with the selective secularism as has been pointed by many on these forums themselves. Now, I think, we've atleast diagnosed the disease, lets apply proper medication SANGEETHA CHENNAI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (15)  |   DISLIKE (3)  |   REPORT ABUSE

104/D-77 SEP 04, 2012 10:54 AM

Sangeetha, Thnks for your explanations. I want to make some observations. 1. There are several books which have been very influential. e.g. Bible, Quran etc. How many people have read them? Millions. Now there are books like Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, which have left their mark in history. How many people read it? Many bought it, presented it to others, but how many actually read it? I am sure thousands had read Das Kapital, but at height of Nazi success also I wonder if even a hundred had read Mein Kampf. These books in that sense were some sort of badges or banners which stood for certain spirit of the time. 2. Vedas/ Gita in that sense were never widely read/recited. What were popular were the epics in their various versions and puranic kathas.  Now, I think, we've atleast diagnosed the disease I still don't think so. But it is a continuing process right? I can see the disease but not any satisfactory diagnosis. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (7)  |   REPORT ABUSE

124/D-23 SEP 06, 2012 11:18 AM	The following quote of an American writer has a lot of relevance to Freedom of Speech and for eschewing intolerance, of any kind, to those who have opposing views:  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" R V SUBRAMANIAN GURGAON, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
125/D-25 SEP 06, 2012 11:34 AM	The quotation is by Voltaire. This we have heard ad nauseum around 1990 whenever concerns were raised against hate speech. None of them risked their lives for anything of course. It just gave them a halo of being a liberal and revolutionary when they were just indifferent if not hate filled.   R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (2)  |   REPORT ABUSE
126/D-26 SEP 06, 2012 11:52 AM	It is amazing. We agree that we need rules for driving on the road. So why not rules governing how we speak and what we speak? And taking responsibility for what we speak? Our constitution gives us freedom of speech and expression under Article 19 but there are  reasonable restrictions that may imposed on them by the State, listed under Article 19 itself. The grounds for imposing these restrictions vary according to the freedom sought to be restricted, and include national security, public order, decency and morality, contempt of court, incitement to offences, and defamation. This was arrived not arbitrarily but after debates in constituent assembly. And what we consider as national security, public order, decency and morality, contempt of court, incitement to offences, defamation also is not fixed, will vary as we evolve as a society. We need to debate. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (4)  |   REPORT ABUSE
127/D-32 SEP 06, 2012 01:03 PM	126/D-26 : R.Saroja  " It is amazing. We agree that we need rules for driving on the road......." Rules do not affect those who are intolerant as one can see how such rules are flouted by the Aam Admi in Delhi NCR! R V SUBRAMANIAN GURGAON, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
128/D-33 SEP 06, 2012 01:14 PM	Having rules at least underlines what the norms are. I agree with you that we should not be intolerant of opposing views. In fact we should develop the culture of listening to others, learning to look ourselves through different eyes. But should Raj Thackeray have the freedom to say whatever pleases him? If action against him will be taken only if his speech leads to direct violence, then it is an indirect invitation to those who are against him to take to violence. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (2)  |   REPORT ABUSE

------------- 1/D-17 OCT 12, 2012 07:05 AM	------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How ghastly ! Our prayers are with Malala and her family. It is time for the moderate Muslims in Pakistan to come forward and openly declare: "Enough ...This far and no further. We do not tolerate any more atrocities by this mindless and inhuman extremist fringe of Pakistan. For us  humanity is more important than religious conservatism and fanaticism ".  G. NIRANJAN RAO HYDERABAD, ANDHRA PRADESH, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
2/D-139 OCT 12, 2012 10:23 PM	Pakistanis are deceiving themselves. There are no good Talibans. ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (7)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
3/D-50 OCT 13, 2012 10:45 AM	The lady was decent, being an Afghan. Why do you suppose the men, who are associated with her community are indecent? The American people call some Afghans thugs, when no one in the Arab world, remembers today, that the American ambassador was tragically assassinated. The Americans must get some perspective. By the way, the U. S. economy is not growing, perhaps, because if everyone becomes in the same income bracket, the economy grows as slowly, as the equality is apparent. A person must appreciate living a life which he compares ordinary, and others compare as simple, if he so desires. ADITYA MOOKERJEE BELGAUM, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
4/D-153 OCT 13, 2012 10:39 PM	Anwaar >> Pakistanis are deceiving themselves. There are no good Talibans. Taliban is a product of theocracy. The plain truth is there is NOTHING LIKE GOOD THEOCRACY. As long as Pakistan refuses to secularise itself, it will continue to have the GOOD Talibans in it. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (4)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
5/D-1 OCT 14, 2012 12:00 AM	Ramki, >>  there is NOTHING LIKE GOOD THEOCRACY. So stop supporting Hindutva parties! ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (3)  |   REPORT ABUSE
6/D-27 OCT 14, 2012 09:33 AM	Post#5, But Congress is no alternative to "Hindutva". P is the lesser evil compared to congress as it at least has no "Family" which thrives on blood relations than competence. It is another matter that competence maybe minimum... PANKAJ HEDAOO KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
7/D-72 OCT 14, 2012 04:00 PM	Anwaar >> So stop supporting Hindutva parties! The so called Hindutva parties, BJP, SS et al are not asking india to roll back its secularism. They are only asking for a fair secular state which treats majority and minority religionists at par. If you imply that secularism is about treating some religionists with special privileges, taht only means that you are asking for return to the Mughal era (when a minority religion ruled the nation and imposed theocracy through Jazia and other nonsensical taxes). So stop fooling around and see the truth. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (4)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
8/D-73 OCT 14, 2012 04:05 PM	Anwaar >> So stop supporting Hindutva parties! See how clever Mr Anwaar is.. whenever and wherever we ask for secularisation of Pakistna, he comes up with some statement to deflect that demand.. Taliban and like are flourishing not because of some illiterate, ancient mullahs, but only because of such educated, savvy fundamentalists like Anwaar. Beware !! RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (4)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
9/D-96 OCT 14, 2012 07:37 PM	Ramki  >>See how clever Mr Anwaar is.. whenever and wherever we ask for secularisation of Pakistna, he comes up with some statement to deflect that demand.. Till now, I did not know how powerful Ramki or Anwaar were. It seems one can secularize Pakistan by issueing a fatwa from India, and it seems the other hinders it by asking to give up hindutva. Most of the Indians including hindus know what hindutva is all about. India is a large country. We do not have to choose between the Devil and the Dynasty.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (3)  |   REPORT ABUSE
10/D-105 OCT 14, 2012 10:52 PM	Ramki, >> The so called Hindutva parties, BJP, SS et al are not asking india to roll back its secularism. Of course not! Why should they reveal their intentions? ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (4)  |   REPORT ABUSE
11/D-107 OCT 14, 2012 10:57 PM	Ramki, >>  whenever and wherever we ask for secularisation of Pakistnan..... Is it not brainless to ask me to secularize Pakistan? On the other hand it is perfectly logical for me to ask you to stop supporting Hindutva theocracy. ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (5)  |   REPORT ABUSE
12/D-15 OCT 15, 2012 10:37 AM	Anwaar, [[So stop supporting Hindutva parties!]] Do you ever stop and look in the mirror? A Muslim asking a Hindu to stop supporting Hindutva parties - this has got to be the joke of the century.  ALAKSHYENDRA HYDERABAD, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (6)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
13/D-49 OCT 15, 2012 03:32 PM	There are no good taliban. It is a creation of pak army. It has now come back to bite them in their backside. KISHOREDASMUNSHI KOLKATTA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
14/D-83 OCT 15, 2012 09:35 PM	R Saroja >>  It seems one can secularize Pakistan by issueing a fatwa from India, Absurd response by someone who claims to be secular, liberal, progressive etc.. Did i ask for any religious dictat for making Pak a secular state? Pak needs to secularise, in its own self interest, in the interest of its minorities, in the interest of its society which needs to understand and appreciate its Pre islamic past (Hindu, jain, buddhist) and in the interest of subcontinent which is seeing never ending hate ,war and terrorism due to obstinate theocracy of Pakistan. If you call the just demand of secularising Pakistan as a fatwa, one can only say that you wish the worst for the religious minorities of pak, and you want never ending warfare and violence in the subcontinent R Saroja >> We do not have to choose between the Devil and the Dynasty. The Devil is the LEFT and DYNASTY is the CONGRESS. Thankfully India has an alternative in NDA and it worked well , as demonstrated by 6 years of Vajpayeeji rule. if only we had some interest in the nation, we will vote to bring back NDA again. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
15/D-102 OCT 15, 2012 10:44 PM	Ramki, Go back and read whatever you have written in this thread and tell me what the NDA will do to a secular like me. Like this? - hindu.com/2002/12/18/stories/2002121805260100.htm If anyone from NDA has disowned this statement, give me the details.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
16/D-9 OCT 16, 2012 12:57 AM	R Saroja, The Hindu is the last place I would look for evidence of NDA's secularism or lack of it. It is like asking Goebbels to speak for Jews or like expecting Taliban to preach secularism. The role of Hindu in promoting such dubious politicians such as Kanimozhi and Raja is too well known to be even repeated here. Togadia is just  one person in the Hindu Right and unlike the Congress (which is all about one family, one person, one dynasty), the Hindu Right- BJP/NDA is about many many leaders who often differ with each other, but somehow worked better to give a better rule than the 58 years of non stop corrupt Congress misrule. I donno about you, but I lived through the 6 years of NDA rule and except for 2002 riots (which was more of an accident/mishap), NDA has been more secular than all previous regimes. And NDA has been in power across several states from karnataka to Jharkhand to Himachal to Bihar and religious minorities are doing very well in these states. The last 10 years post 2002 riots has been the most peaceful period in history of Gujarat (over 100+ years), despite the media lies on making Modi as the next Hitler. And I base my view on real facts on ground - not on some reports that appear in Hindu,Teheka, Frontline and some articles written by paid Congress propagandamen like Prakash pandey or sanjay Jha or Harsh Mander or Tarun Tejpal . Such paid news is only for lazy leftists who live on such home spun fiction, to justify their own world view. I know,  it is futile to argue with a hardened leftist, but I am still telling to clarify my POV for others. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
17/D-10 OCT 16, 2012 01:21 AM	Ramki, I am neither a leftist nor a Congress supporter. Are you denying the newspaper report? Or are you for committed reporting. Soviet Style? This entire country lived through a spell of NDA and have repeatedly rejected them.  After 1984 there has never been a anti Sikh riot. But Congress/Rajiv Gandhi are rightly held guilty of it even though no conviction of any major leader has taken place. That is a sad reflection of our criminal justice system, not any clean chit for anyone. Oh yes.There are many leaders. One for mukhota, one for hatchet.. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
18/D-12 OCT 16, 2012 01:34 AM	One for mukhota, one for hatchet.. why is India a nation, state or country. The answer is Hindutva, Hindutva and Hindutva. If we are not Hindus, we are not a country.  If there is no Hindutva, we are as united as equator. RISHI VYAS KANGRA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
19/D-13 OCT 16, 2012 01:42 AM	Rishi Vyas, Do you know the difference between hinduism and hindutva?  We are a modern nation because of our freedom struggle. Hindutva people were not in it.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (2)  |   REPORT ABUSE
20/D-15 OCT 16, 2012 01:45 AM	You may also be interested in knowing the role of people like Tagore in drawing Gandhi and Freedom movement from a narrow nationalist path in early 1920s. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
21/D-16 OCT 16, 2012 01:48 AM	May I suggest a reading of Orwell to know the difference between nationalism and patriotism?  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
22/D-17 OCT 16, 2012 01:50 AM	>>  We are a modern nation because of our freedom struggle. Hindutva people were not in it That's stupid. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
23/D-18 OCT 16, 2012 01:53 AM	Rishi Vyas, Read the link provided in # 15 to know what hindutva is about.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
24/D-19 OCT 16, 2012 02:02 AM	Whatsinaname, I refer you to 'India After Independece" by Bipan Chandra, et al for that point of view. For unity, one need not be monolithic. We do not have a common language. There was a time when there were parties in South India and then only in TN adcocating a separate State. You won't say that India is a country because hindi is a language spoken by the largest group (though not a majority).  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
25/D-21 OCT 16, 2012 03:42 AM	<< We are a modern nation because of our freedom struggle. Hindutva people were not in it>> I am not sure about this notion of modern nation but what did the freedom struggle acheive. Freedom struggle never wanted a partition. Freedom struggle was lost way back in 1942 and Gandhi's back down after the ultimatum. You have give the due credit to hitler, labour government, royal navy mutiny et al. Above all, you have to give credit to the moronic Britishers to make the war time hero Chruchill bite the dust and let India go free.  Though I don't agree with Togadia on all the issues, I believe he has a fair point in raising those issues. A Ram temple in Ayodhya won't mean that there will be Hindutva rule in India. Hindutva stands for Dharmic religions and not for Hinduism which is not even a religon. <<May I suggest a reading of Orwell to know the difference between nationalism and patriotism? >> I don't know when Orwell wrote the gospels and gospel truth but nationalism and patriotism are entirely different topic when understood with religious connotations. Orwell didn't live in the age of religious wars.  RISHI VYAS KANGRA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
26/D-24 OCT 16, 2012 04:01 AM	>> I refer you to 'India After Independece" by Bipan Chandra Forget about referring me to stuff I have no plans to read. Just answer a simple question. If Hindutva people were not in freedom struggle, why was its foremost advocate, sent to Kala Pani in Celluar jail? Was he caught flirting with the viceroy's wife? Oh wait! That was Nehru. >> For unity, one need not be monolithic Gee. I thought you were talking about freedom struggle. >> We do not have a common language Thanks for letting me know. Till your elucidation, a northie like me who spent so many years in South and spent countless hours watching Gulti movies and listening to Tamil music had no idea that we don't have a common language. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
27/D-30 OCT 16, 2012 06:29 AM	>>>>Though I don't agree with Togadia on all the issues, I believe he has a fair point in raising those issues. A Ram temple in Ayodhya won't mean that there will be Hindutva rule in India This is what Togadia stated -- Praveen Togadia, VHP secretary-general, told the press here this evening what in his view constituted the important ingredients of Hindutva. "The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status,'' he said. And as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of "dismembering'' it, reminding everyone that "fundamentalism and extremism cannot be finished till Pakistan is dismembered.'' All those who opposed Hindutva, and this certainly included secularists, would get the "death sentence'' he declared. But the VHP would not have to carry out the sentence, the people would. "All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,'' he said. In other words talibanization of India is Togadia's vision. I have not seen any rightwing leader disowning Togadia.(The speech was in 2002)  Orwell did not live in the age of religious wars. meaning it is more recent? But you do not seem to realize that Nazism and communism were two great religions of twentieth century. (The God that Failed, was the title of a book of essays by ex communists on Russia). During the freedom movement, the leaders acquired ability to negotiate and accomodate diverse view point and work within a consensual framework. They also had to take a pan Indian approach and work through local leaders. Moreover leaders by and large were open to criticism and were self critical. To the extent these succeeded, our democracy has taken roots. Failure resulted in partition. Even the framing of contitution with discussions over a long time, contributed to the feeling of having a stake in the success of democracy. But we are not immune to happenings in the world. Resettling people in the name of lebensraum precedes Hitler. A whole state of Israel came up. About Orwell's understanding of nationalism with a religious connotation, here is he in"Notes on Nationalism"-- Nationalism, in the extended sense in which I am using the word, includes such movements and tendencies as Communism, political Catholicism, Zionism,.. Last time you were saying something about religious leaders bringing about changes like ending inquisitions,..Did they ever? I thought that there were protestant inquisitions too. Religious leaders when they bring about changes, produce another religion. That accounts for so many sects in every religion.(How many communist parties are there in India?) R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
28/D-34 OCT 16, 2012 07:37 AM	Whatsinaname, Savarkar founded 'Free India Society'  in England where he had gone for his studies, to liberate India from British rule. One of the members of his group assassinated an official in London and for this Savarkar was sentenced to life and transported to Andaman in 1911 where he stayed till 1921.  While there he wrote several petitions seeking clemency and was shifted to Ratnagiri in 1921. Later he was releasrd  subject to the undertaking that he will not take part in any private or public political activity.In 1920 Gandhi wrote in Young India about Savarkar’s attitude towards the British: “They [the Savarkar brothers] both state unequivocally that they do not desire inde-pendence from the British connection. On the contrary, they feel that India’s destiny can be worked out in association with the British” (The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, vol. 17, 462) When Gandhi launched the ‘Quit India Movement’ asking people to renounce government jobs, Savarkar gave a counter order saying: “I issue this definite instruction to all Hindu Sanghatanists in general holding any post or position of vantage in the government service, should stick to them and continue to perform their regular duties” In any case, he wrote "Hindutva' in 1923 and till 1937 when the condition on his political participation remained, he was not in any political movement and thereafter in 1937 was elected President of Hindu Mahasabha. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
29/D-40 OCT 16, 2012 09:41 AM	I couldn't care less about what Savarkar did or Gandhi said. All I know is that if India hadn't been Hindu, we would never have been secular. To know how a Muslim majority would treat its minorities in the subcontinent, we need look no further than Pakistan and Bangladesh, where Hindus, Ahmadis, and Christians hold a place that's only marginally better than that of animals. ALAKSHYENDRA HYDERABAD, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
30/D-42 OCT 16, 2012 10:25 AM	Saroja, Thanks for bringing up some ofthe facts about Savarkar that others like to paper over. ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
31/D-56 OCT 16, 2012 12:24 PM	>> Savarkar founded 'Free India Society' in England where he had gone for his studies, to liberate India from British rule. And per your defn, that shall not fall in the domain of fighting for freedom, right? What exactly do you mean when you say freedom fighters? Do you include those who made speeches asking for more concessions from the British, and then went to have tea? How about those who joined a crowd, shouted a few slogans, maybe threw a stone or two and ran away when they saw a lathi charge? Or how about those who, missing the embrace of their wife, tried to substitute it with that of the viceroy's wife? Will you include the following amongst freedom fighters, or are they tainted with association with Hindutva/communal elements 1. Savarkar of course 2. SP Mukherjee: Member of Nehru's cabinet and founder of Jan Sangh 3. Hedgewar: Founder of RSS, who was also involved with Tilak 4. Dr. B. S. Moonje: President of Hindu Mahasabha for 10 years Three of the above (excluding Savarkar), were part of Congress, and took active part in the independence movement. They are also considered amongst the leading lights of the Hindutva movement and philosophy. Are you willing to ignore their contribution over a significant part of their life towards independence, just because of your hatred of Hindutva? And so far, I've not even gone to the names like Pandit Malaviya, Lala Lajpat Rai, and Tilak, some of the hate objects of your latest fan (the resident jehadi of course), whom he considers communal, on a league similar to Maududi. >> One of the members of his group assassinated an official in London and for this Savarkar was sentenced to life You're wrong en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savarkar#Arrest_in_London_and_in_Marseilles >> While there he wrote several petitions seeking clemency and was shifted to Ratnagiri in 1921 He did indeed. His followers like to claim that it was tactical. I've never quite bought that. I think he might not have been able to tolerate the conditions in cellular jail. After all, he was not detained in some minimum security facility like Yerwada. He was doing hard labor and facing torture in Cellular jail. Does it mean he was not as tough as his followers like to project. Maybe. Even likely. However, for those of us, who understand that life is not a Hollywood/Bollywood movie, where a single hero can break out of the jail by beating up the entire lot of guards, will realize that these "inadequacies" do not take away from the effort and committment shown earlier. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
32/D-57 OCT 16, 2012 12:38 PM	>> Thanks for bringing up some ofthe facts about Savarkar Aw! So cute! It's tough to find a couple more perfect for each other. Have you guys chosen the names of your kids yet? >> that others like to paper over. It's funny coming from the scumbag who likes to paper over comments from Syed like "Hindi is the language of the vulgar", and that we must not come under the Bengalis. Or how about comments of Gandhi, who blamed Shradhanand for inviting his own murder by indulging in Shuddhi, or his obnoxious defense of the killing and raping by the Moplahs? Do you paper over these, or do you highlight these in your posts? Speaking of myself, yes, I do ignore these parts of Savarkar's life. I think his other contributions are significant enough. However, I've NEVER defended him for these. I've NEVER said that these letters were tactical, or endorsed his Hindutva views at any time. This is quite unlike the resident jehadi, who defends obnoxious statements by the likes of Syed, by trying to shift the blame on "language controversy", Malaviya and Lajpat Rai. Of course, when challenged, he makes a fool of himself, and displays his loyalties by picking articles from Paki sites, and reproducing the trash here. You two deserve each other. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (4)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
33/D-58 OCT 16, 2012 12:48 PM	And BTW, in 71, the Government of Kerala officially recognised the active participants in the events as "freedom fighters". So I guess, per the secularists (and I assume Saroja counts herself as one), the rapists and murderers of Moplah are freedom fighters, but those who founded "Free India Society" with the goal of fighting for complete independence, are not. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
34/D-60 OCT 16, 2012 01:02 PM	Saroja Whatever Tagodia said was correct when you look at the condition of Hindus in Pakistan. How many of them are there in Pakistan and what atrocities they face. Pakistan was a place of Hindus just 65 years back. why don't you see that.  Death sentence for seculars. What the heck this word secular mean? Closet Muslims or Jehadis . India is a nation because of Hinduism and Hindutva. we have suffered more deaths due to terrorism than any other country in the world. Do you think people won't hit back.  During freedom movement - Really you believe it was INC that got India freedom. How about Burma freedom? What Congress did was nothing compared to other factors.  Last time ------- It was you who said Simon Bolivar brought an end to Inquisition in South America. Care to give a citation for that? If there is a change in any religion, it comes from within by the religious people and not from outside. Arya Samaj to Brahmo samaj broght these changes in Hinduism. This was called Hindu reformation. Yes, there are sects and those sects moderate a religion. RISHI VYAS KANGRA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
35/D-62 OCT 16, 2012 01:13 PM	Rishi Vyas, >>  What the heck this word secular mean? Closet Muslims or Jehadis . That is a very ignorant comment. It is also very hateful. ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
36/D-64 OCT 16, 2012 01:23 PM	Anwaar Secular means someone who has nothing to do with religion. I don't think anyone who is an apologist for a religion can be a secular.  RISHI VYAS KANGRA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
37/D-70 OCT 16, 2012 02:17 PM	Whatsinaname,       >>You're wrong. Well, the link in the wiki article that you cited leads to this  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_House#Culmination  . Name of the associate being M.L.Dhingra . Savarkar had a definite bent towards violent independence struggle, him being involved in bomb making etc. But his hindutva developed only during his incarceration in Andaman. It is not for me to speculate what hardships and torture can do to a person. I probably will go mad. I would say, the Andaman broke his spirit. So Yes, Savarkar was a freedom fighter ,but prior to 1911. Well, see the link in my post# 15. Now tell me whether or not I am justified in my hatred of hindutva. I am absolutely sure that a Malviya or a Lajpat Rai would never have tolerated a Togadia, so labelling them all as hindutva (Savarkar had used the term hindutva as an ideology to distinguish it from hinduism.) is absurd. Moreover if those people had the ability to see into the future to see where religion based politics leads to, they certainly would have asked for separation of religion from state. We should see people in their historic settings. About other names that you mention, I am a recent reader of freedom struggle which I find fascinating, but would not like to comment about things that I am not very sure of. About comparison with Maududi, the comparison will be more apt with Savarkar, the differences being (i) Maududi was a believer, Savarkar was an atheist (ii) Maududi has had far more influence outside India. Inside India, both have been cult figure to a small group only. Are you asking me to lable who is a true freedom fighter? If you want to know my prejudice, my favorite one is Gokhale with his depth and rootedness.And I find Tagore fascinating.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
38/D-72 OCT 16, 2012 02:37 PM	>> Well, the link in the wiki article that you cited leads to this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_House#Culmination . Name of the associate being M.L.Dhingra Eh? The link I gave says this In India, Ganesh Savarkar had organised an armed revolt against the Morley-Minto reforms of 1909. The British police implicated Savarkar in the investigation for allegedly plotting the crime. So, he was implicated for alleged association with actions of Ganesh Savarkar and not Dhingra. In any case, these are minor points. Is this all nit picking you were able to do from my wonderful response, and that too, wrong? >> Well, see the link in my post# 15. Now tell me whether or not I am justified in my hatred of hindutva Are you a complete idiot, or only a partial one? Who is discussing about your hatred of Hindutva or the justification for it? Why do you have so much trouble sticking to the subject? >> so labelling them all as hindutva I don't. You need to take this question to your latest fan. He doesn't have the balls to answer me, but I'm sure he shall answer you if you ask him nicely (after all, you are a cute couple). He shall deny (correctly), that he associated them with Hindutva. He might want to "paper over" the fact though, that he compared them with Maududi, and used stupid Paki sources for his lies. >> We should see people in their historic settings. Does their historic setting say that they didn't take part in freedom struggle as you allege? >> but would not like to comment about things that I am not very sure of But you did. See your post 19. It's perfectly all right to accept your mistake. Don't crap all over the place though, and try to raise a stink. >> About comparison with Maududi, the comparison will be more apt with Savarkar, the differences being (i) Maududi was a believer, Savarkar was an atheist (ii) Maududi has had far more influence outside India. Inside India, both have been cult figure to a small group only. You can continue this discussion with your worse half, after you've decided the names of your kids. He's the one who brought the scoundrel's name in a discussion about Malaviya and Lajpat Rai. >> Are you asking me to lable who is a true freedom fighter? No, I'm not. I hope the other Physicists working with you are better able to focus on the problem at hand. Future of our Science is dim if their ability to focus on an issue is as poor as yours. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
39/D-80 OCT 16, 2012 04:18 PM	#32, #38 I had not seen your earlier posts otherwise I would not have bothered to answer you. As a woman working in a predominantly male field, I am used to a lot of platonic relationships, something beyond your understanding. This my last response to you and to the other scum who posted something like this few days back.  R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
40/D-105 OCT 16, 2012 06:59 PM	Rishi Vyas, One request. When you state something out of the box, do not use words to shock. That emotion gives structure to your sentence but obscures the point and may be lets you get away without any effort!? Let me slowly develop my point now. What is the meaning or what are the meanings of secular?  (i) As you say, having nothing to do with religion (ii)  Separation of state from religion (iii) equal treatment of all religions etc etc. Now (i) and (iii) can be followed by a person or State or both.Now what is religion? Usually it postulates a suprapersonal entity or principle that governs human actions. It is a set of rituals, observations and festivals.  My definition of secularism will be that the State should keep itself away from religion. But people have religion. And State deals with people. But then we also agree that State shall not poke its nose into everything. That limit is different from State to State, but no one allows State to access everything from individuals. Now you are talking about hindus in Pakistan or to some slighly less extent in Bangladesh. Minorities here are clearly being persecuted. What will be your reaction? That you have nothing to do with religion, so you see some persecution, so handle it as law and order problem. In a reasonable state where rule of law holds, eg US, that may be a correct step. eg I found that in US hate crimes do not attract more punishment than other crimes as is the case in several European countries. But FBI is independent and efficient and powerful.  But that is not the case in Pakistan. Law enforcing agencies are neither efficient, nor independent of government. And Pakistan is nominally a democracy.  And Army is also there. Imran Khan, earlier seen as a non corrupt political alternative, will not take a firm stand even in the case of Malala. "Taliban are our people" even when they are shooting down some of our lesser "our people".  Now how do I as an Indian react to happenings in Pakistan? By treating muslims here the way hindus are treated over there? We are not living in some hypothetical universe. There have been pogroms against minorities and in the last thirty years they have paid rich electoral dividend. You had written about watching one such riot in your town. But as someone watching how India is progressing, I am filled with optimism. The worst period was when hindutva parties were growing and were in power. Their success was possible due to the way Congress behaved the way Pak gov. is behaving today. The behavior was because of the way electoral politics is being played out. Religion based parties are out not because they are seen as evil-- they are seen as silly and irrelevant.  So what does being secular mean in contemporary India? Help others to come to terms with modernity. You do not have to provide any ideology. Just open the doors, people will pick and choose. Problems with muslims is as I see, are problems faced by first generation learners. But that is the case with most of India. If Muslims in Mumbai behaved irresponsibly over Assam violence, there were no demonstrations here over the prophet cartoon. As law enforcing agencies become independent (I think there has been an attempt to make it so), and civil society is active.(It is not only Kejriwal or NAC) I think it is pointless arguing about what Togadia said, etc. I just brought it out. 10 years back when he made that statement, it was a normal statement made by a certain class of politicians. Today it is out of place, sounds clownish. Outside internet I have not seen anyone going gaga over certain types..  I got the info about Simon Bolivar from a book of memoirs set in Brazil of late 19th century. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
41/D-117 OCT 16, 2012 09:33 PM	R Saroja >> Now how do I as an Indian react to happenings in Pakistan? By treating muslims here the way hindus are treated over there? We are not living in some hypothetical universe. If you are arguing that the treatment of Hindus in Pakistan is same as the treatment meted out to the Muslims in India, then it is obvious that there is no point in even continuing the discussion. It is impossible to cure the blindness of those who have vision but refuse to see. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
42/D-122 OCT 16, 2012 10:38 PM	R Saroja >> As a woman working in a predominantly male field, I am used to a lot of platonic relationships, something beyond your understanding. This my last response to you and to the other scum who posted something like this few days back. If one is not able to counter valid arguments and facts ,the easiest response is name calling. So Predictable !!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
43/D-123 OCT 16, 2012 10:49 PM	>>There are no good taliban. It is a creation of pak army. It has now come back to bite them in their backside. As much as Khalistan was creation of Indira and came back bite her with a vengence. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
44/D-124 OCT 16, 2012 10:51 PM	R Saroja >> Oh yes.There are many leaders. One for mukhota, one for hatchet.. Can you please read your words again and again? You are often quoting from some ultra extreme fringe elements in Hindu Right (who do not represent 99% of the Hindu Conservatives), and you talk about Taliban, but dont you understand that you share the same virtues with these people whom you supposedly critique and condemn? The virtue that you share with these extreme element is " Seeing Ghosts Where none exist" "Inventing and spreading conspiracy theories where none exist".  R Saroja >> I am neither a leftist nor a Congress supporter. Are you denying the newspaper report? Or are you for committed reporting. Soviet Style? After 1984 there has never been a anti Sikh riot. But Congress/Rajiv Gandhi are rightly held guilty of it even though no conviction of any major leader has taken place.  Is there a limit to lying? After 1984 Anti Sikh Riots, Rajiv Returned to power with 4/5 majority. And nothing ended, the Punjab continued to burn with separatism, and terrorism all through Rajiv era. And it did not end there. THe rajiv era saw the peaceful Kashmir erupt into a violent volcano , throwing out the half a million or so Kashmiri Pandits out of the valley. And the same Rajiv Congress messed up in Sri Lanka, leading to unwanted and unnecessary death of hundreds and thousands of Eelam Tamils and Indian Men in Uniform. All because of the incompetence of the seccular Rajiv regime. In contrast, Gujarat has been an oasis of peace and development post 2002 February. Can you deny this basic difference? R Saroja >> This entire country lived through a spell of NDA and have repeatedly rejected them. The NDA regime for 6 years has been an open book story and all their activities were known threadbare. And for your attention, may I point out that after 2004 defeat, NDA has been reelected and has been in rule in over 8 states, each of them having population comparable to some European Nations. And while you can point out a hundred flaws in NDA/BJP rule, the honest fact is w.r.t o secularism and treatment of minorities, the BJP/NDA regime has been far better than all the Congress ruled governments last 58 years, with the sole exception of Feb 2002 which is a separate case that needs special examination. And in last 10 years, there has been not a single major communal riot happened in any state, municipality or panchayat ruled by BJP anywhere in India (whereas we had so much violence in Sekkular Congress ruled Rajastan and asam  !!) RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
45/D-125 OCT 16, 2012 10:54 PM	RAMKI >>society which needs to understand and appreciate its Pre islamic past (Hindu, jain, buddhist) Do you think by any chance, that population might have made a clear choice to break from that past and would not like to re-visit it even if that is their last and only salvation? Much like lot of Indians (esp. women) after growing up in western countries, would like to avoid Khap diktats if at all possible regardless of the glory of Upnishadic Hindu society of centuries ago. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
46/D-126 OCT 16, 2012 10:57 PM	>> I lived through the 6 years of NDA rule and except for 2002 riots (which was more of an accident/mishap), NDA has been more secular than all previous regimes If your definition of secular mean, riots and violence are the "accidents/mishaps" that happen to "other" people. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (2)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
47/D-127 OCT 16, 2012 10:57 PM	What Is In a Name >> You two deserve each other. I wonder, how exactly the resident CON Party apologist man and resident eternal Modi Baiting Lady , have hijacked the entire discussion about Taliban and Pakistan ito yet another occasion to malign , maim, distort and abuse the leaders of Hindu Right. The topic was about Taliban and I honestly pointed out that Taliban was a natural creation fo Theocratic Pakistan and that the only way to end terrorism and violence in Pakistan is to secularise the nation (The way Turkey was secularised by Kemal Attaturk). And guess what the CON party apologist and the Modi Baiting Lady jump in fray and indulge in name calling.  This kind of also exposes the so called progressivism of some folks.Their progressivism is selective and more of "HEADS I WIN , TAILS YOU LOSE KIND" RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
48/D-128 OCT 16, 2012 11:00 PM	Hitesh >> If your definition of secular mean, riots and violence are the "accidents/mishaps" that happen to "other" people. And your definition of secularism is when some people of a particular region are expelled out of their homeland in the name of "Jehad" and are yet to resettle in the homeland even after 23 years.. !! RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
49/D-129 OCT 16, 2012 11:00 PM	RISHI>>If there is no Hindutva, we are as united as equator. Oh quoting Churchil, are we? Without the "(in)famous" German discipline, Euro is as united as "frozen tundra"? HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
50/D-130 OCT 16, 2012 11:03 PM	Hitesh >> Do you think by any chance, that population might have made a clear choice to break from that past and would not like to re-visit it even if that is their last and only salvation? Let the population choose a clean break from past and prefer to worship a prophet instead of 33 million gods. No one cares a damn. But why is that population insisting that a small minority of people, who continue to believe in 33 million gods, are not left in peace, and should be raped, kidnapped, murdered and chased away out of the nation? Or are you suggesting that this is the right course.. In which case you have made an excellent apology for Talibanism. Hitesh>> Much like lot of Indians (esp. women) after growing up in western countries, would like to avoid Khap diktats if at all possible regardless of the glory of Upnishadic Hindu society of centuries ago. The women who discard Hinduism in USA/Western europe do not ask that all those few women and men who continue to believe in idol worsihp and in 33 millon gods pack up and leave back to India... So your analogy is INVALID. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
51/D-131 OCT 16, 2012 11:07 PM	Hitesh >> Oh quoting Churchil, are we?Without the "(in)famous" German discipline, Euro is as united as "frozen tundra"? You can have your own pet theories. But to those who are not blinded by hatred of the pagan infidel worshippers of 33 million gods. here is some honest truth: If India were 80% Islamic, North east india, Punjab would not been part of India. Southern Kerala and goa would have long back seceded from India. If India were 80% Christian, Kashmir and Punjab would have been out of India and so woudl have a few other states like Sikkim.. If India were 80% Buddhist, Kashmir, Punjab and more importantly TamilNadu would have been not part of India.. Hinduism as a religion may not unite all Indians. But the diversity within Hinduism, and the tolerance of other faiths is the binding element of the nation state that India is. Of course, telling this will make some leftist indulge in instantaneous name calling.. call me a sanghi, Gandhi killer, whatever you want.. but this is the hard reality. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
52/D-132 OCT 16, 2012 11:11 PM	Hitesh >> As much as Khalistan was creation of Indira and came back bite her with a vengence. Khalistan was a project of Indira/Congress party. Which is why, once the dynasty was out of power (post 1989) , the movement collapsed and the normalcy was restored. But Pakistan was not a creation of an individual. It is a project of a lunatic crazy theocracy and  the project creates victims and victims even as the original sponsors of the project (Jinnah) or intermediary advocates (Zia/Bhutto/Musharaf) or recent project directors (Bin Laden) have died. And the only solution is to wind the project and reinvent Pakistan as a Islam Majority, Urdu speaking Secular nation that tolerates non Muslims and does not obsess with religious theocracy. RAMKI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
53/D-137 OCT 16, 2012 11:34 PM	SAROJA>>Moreover if those people had the ability to see into the future to see where religion based politics leads to, they certainly would have asked for separation of religion from state. Gandhi was the original guilty party here and that is why he drove both Jinnah and Ambedkar up the wall with his histrionics. So, yes contradiction that is India (the secular nation) who also happen to have very religious "father of the nation" and add to the mix that for most of the South Asian population, concept of secularism is as foreign as Nirvana is to Westerners. Tantalizing idea but of no practical consequence to their lives here and now. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
54/D-138 OCT 16, 2012 11:46 PM	Hitesh.#53 In early 1920s Gandhi was countered by Tagore over this, So Gandhi had to tone down his messianic swadeshi movement. About secularism being foreign to India, so was Gandhian puritanism (Influence of Tolstoy), and to some extent celibacy. Every generation just looks around and mix- matches. Nationalism was the scourge of 20th century and India was also affected by it. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
55/D-140 OCT 16, 2012 11:56 PM	But Gandhi was no fool.He was religious and was opposed to hindutva. Yes about his histrionics. I don't think he talked down at anyone. But he had to carry a mass movement by carrying everyone while, a Jinnah or Ambedkar could afford to antogonize others. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
56/D-2 OCT 17, 2012 12:26 AM	Rishi Vyas, >> Secular means someone who has nothing to do with religion. Another ignorant comment from you! A secular person may be a good Hindu, a good Muslim or a good atheist. He respects all religions equally, and keeps religion out of government. >>  I don't think anyone who is an apologist for a religion can be a secular. Correcting misrepresentations and lies about one's religion by communalists like you is not the same thing as being an apologist! ANWAAR DALLAS, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
57/D-6 OCT 17, 2012 02:01 AM	RAMKI>>all those few women and men who continue to believe in idol worsihp and in 33 millon gods pack up and leave back to India... So your analogy is INVALID. that is exactly the point of secularism. they may love the idols, culture and heritage while still wanting their government and law to be based on secular considerations rather than whims of some old men in a village in Haryana. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
58/D-7 OCT 17, 2012 02:04 AM	>> I had not seen your earlier posts otherwise I would not have bothered to answer you. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks >> As a woman working in a predominantly male field, I am used to a lot of platonic relationships, something beyond your understanding. You're right. I don't understand. I am a male working in a male dominated industry. Studied in institutes with few females, and subjects populated mostly by men. The only relationship I had (and continue to have) with the few female colleagues was one of friendship, similar to those with the other guys. I didn't have "platonic relations" with them or any other guys. Just simple friendship. Is that so complicated? Your gender had nothing to do with my comments. In fact, the comments were more in response to the comments of the resident jehadi, who deemed it fit to poke his big, ugly, jehadi nose in it. While I have no problems with people taking part in discussions between two people (it's a public forum after all), I do find it amusing that the slimeball, who lacks the guts to engage, has been repeatedly caught lying, and exposed for it, who lacks the decency to apologize for this lies, and indulges in general uncouthness, piggy backed on your own lies to display his hatred. Had some male made the comments you made, and the resident jehadi tried to use them to satisfy his own hatred, the comments about couple and kids would still have been appropriate. After all, anything else would not be PC, right? >> This my last response to you and to the other scum who posted something like this few days back. You are free to turn tail and run. I've seen others on the forum do it, when their lies are exposed with hard facts. You lied in your comment number 19. You don't have the decency to admit your mistake, and apologize for the same. Running away on some lame excuse is probably your way of repeating your lies on another thread in future. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
59/D-8 OCT 17, 2012 02:06 AM	>> I wonder, how exactly the resident CON Party apologist man and resident eternal Modi Baiting Lady , have hijacked the entire discussion about Taliban and Pakistan ito yet another occasion to malign , maim, distort and abuse the leaders of Hindu Right. True. They often accuse others of hijacking threads, but don't feel any inhibitions doing it themselves. But something good came out of it. Their lies and hate got exposed. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
60/D-12 OCT 17, 2012 02:29 AM	Saroja #54/55 Every generation does indeed look around and mix-match. If I look at the sins of Western nationalism just in last century (brutality of major wars, camps, gulags, ethnic cleansing and continuing economic exploitation, arbitrary arrests, war-on-terror, drone strikes, and regime-change in democracies that refuse to toe the western line and so on), it doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in Government of Man away from Government of God (if there ever was such a thing). Regardless, we do live in a different world now. BTW, you must be aware how despondent Ambedkar finally resigned from his post when Nehru was unable to carry the small crowd in his government (esp G. B. Pant and other northern traditionalists) to buy into reformed Hindu Civil Code granting property rights to women among other things. So, Jinnah and Ambedkar were not just anatogonizing for the sake of it, they indeed feared Hindu fundamentalism. In recent movie on Ambedkar, I was surprised to learn that Gandhi did not know of Ambedkar's identity until the two met. I am sure his tactics changed soon after. Also, that it was a Parsi (who are considered the epitome of modern secular image albiet more anglicized) who evicted him upon learning that he was one of the "undesirables" despite him being in the direct employ of the Sayajirao. Gandhi was no fool at all. Even British acknoledged his negotiating capabilities. He could talk people out of their interests without talking down to them :) That is how he blackmailed Ambedkar into giving up the constitutional protection for the part of population that needed it most (that need has been demonstrated time and again in all corners of Indian society). As far as him carrying "everyone", there were as many problems with where he wanted to "carry" as there were with the Sanghis and even Congressis. I do believe Gandhi did prevent some of the bloodshed thanks to his religious convictions about non-violence and satyagrah. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
61/D-13 OCT 17, 2012 02:45 AM	#58>>You are free to turn tail and run. I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong. but then some arguments are "not even wrong" as Pauli would say,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
62/D-14 OCT 17, 2012 03:03 AM	>>You are free to turn tail and run. I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong. You mean she is NOT FREE to turn tail and run? If so, you are wrong. Even Pauli would say so. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
63/D-15 OCT 17, 2012 03:17 AM	#62 No, I meant some of the arguments put forward by the right-wingers like yourself are of the "sun-revolves-around-the-earth" variety; which can be easily falsified and to agree to them is to have everyone be wrong. while some of the more outlandish and indecent attacks are in the "fails-to-meet-the-basic-criteria-of-falsifiability or civilized-debate" aka "not-even-wrong" variety, so running away from them is very rational human response. HITESH BRAHMBHATT SAN DIEGO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
64/D-16 OCT 17, 2012 03:35 AM	>> No, I meant some of the arguments put forward by the right-wingers like yourself are of the "sun-revolves-around-the-earth" variety Which particular argument of mine would that be? Or are you another of that secular crowd, who excel in making stupid, meaningless (and often false) generalized assertions, but "turn tail and run away when asked for specifics or proof"? >> while some of the more outlandish and indecent attacks Almost all of my "indecent attacks" are reserved for a few chosen ones; one in particular, who has been liberal with such attacks himself employing terms like "ill bred moron", "gutter rat", and the more usual Sanghi, fascist, nazi, etc. I am not apologetic about them in the least. WHATS INANAME SAN FRANCISCO, UNITED STATES  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (2)  |   REPORT ABUSE
65/D-22 OCT 17, 2012 06:40 AM	>>reformed Hindu Civil Code ....   Hitesh It is my conviction that spirit of the times or Zeitgeist affects everyone, even those who claim to be outside it. So if we understand the "ideas hanging in the air" of our times,then we can take an informed stand on them and instead of drifting with the tide, regulate the flow a wee bit..? Let me illustrate with the codification of personal laws. Why codification? Prior to codification, what was practiced in India was customary laws governing marriage, inheritance etc.for all communities. Being India, of course, there was a huge variety in these laws. Now Britishers were looking for some canonical source for the laws, so they looked at Sharia for Muslims and Manu Smriti for hindus. Even Ambedkar and Nehru etc were for codification as they believed that uniform laws foster unity. So many people sincerely believed that Uniform language was needed for unity (Hindi was to be the sole official language within 15 years of the republic). So many nationalistic hindus believed in uniform religion....It was the unquestioned spirit of the times. Muslims questioned. And when time came, Tamils also questioned. Though many of the opponents of hindu code bill were obscurantists, but not all were. I refer you to an interesting article by Madhu Kishwar on codified Hindu Code in Economic and Political Weekly (Vol XXIX, No 33, August 13, 1994) traces the history. Now some of the customary laws were more "advanced" than the provisions of Hindu Code. What was finally passed was the watered down version of what Ambedkar drafted.  Jinnah feared hindu fundamentalism (but prior to Britishers, Manu Smriti was not an influential text at all) but ended up by replacing a hypothetical hindu fundamentalism with real Islamic fundamentalism across the border, though he was a secular person. A fitting lesson for all those who espouse "real secularism" without understanding the ground situation. The way forward is the way we have moved forward in language issue. Instead of stressing on "Uniform" , stress on "gender sensitive" and "gender neutral" (One need not imply the other so I am putting them both,) Ambedkar was right in many ways, but Sanskrit !? As I said. the spirit of those times was "Uniform". We are prisoners of spirit of our times also as exemplified by reactions to Anna movement, Arab Spring etc. But that will be the topic in some other thread. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
66/D-24 OCT 17, 2012 07:52 AM	#43 Very true! My concern is God knows why the other national party is busy resuscitating the dead frankenstein. What it did is clear for anyone to see. KISHOREDASMUNSHI KOLKATTA, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
67/D-25 OCT 17, 2012 07:57 AM	See the contribution of parivar luminary Vajpayees contribution to our freedom movement 1. He dissociated himself from the movement 2. Named his friends in the movement which helped in convicting them

D-4/82 OCT 18, 2012 12:14 AM PERMALINK	Are These The Good Or The Bad Taliban?    >>If there is a change in any religion, it comes from within by the religious people and not from outside. Arya Samaj to Brahmo samaj broght these changes in Hinduism. This was called Hindu reformation. Yes, there are sects and those sects moderate a religion. Do sects always moderate and modernize? I had given instance of how codification which took the garb of modernity, uniformity, had in some cases reduced women's rights. Many of the "reformist sects" can be more dogmatic. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA MORE MAIL   |   YOUR TAKE  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE

D-10/83 OCT 18, 2012 02:29 AM PERMALINK	Are These The Good Or The Bad Taliban?  Saroja Change is not always good. I don't think change in Arab world was good. It is digression tho. When i speak about the change in hinduism in what was called hindu reformation, arya samaj brought good changes to hinduism that includes image worship, sacrifice. In the same way, Brahmo Samaj by Ram mohan roy also brought in the good changes change. In christianity, martin luther and clavin brought in reformation. In Islam, the change was brought by religious was done by Islamic revivalist groups like Wahhabis and deobandis. That change wasn't good at all. I still believe that there has been no reformation in islam but only revival. The history of MB in Egypt and Iranian shia revolution starts with Jamal-al-Din al-Afghani. It is impossible to write the whole history here but the present problems in Islam show what is wrong with it. Moreover, there are stalin's relatives who will delete the post and there is no point in writing critical on a religion. In a country like India, one religion is sacrosant and believers of other religion can be termed as suffering from oedipius complex with impunity.  RISHI VYAS KANGRA, INDIA MORE MAIL   |   YOUR TAKE  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
D-11/84 OCT 18, 2012 02:52 AM PERMALINK	Are These The Good Or The Bad Taliban?  Anyway before posts get deleted, I agree with what you say about Brahmo Samaj, but with the other one, did it not bring dogmatism? Again, Calvin brought in change but was it for good? You know some of these reformisms had a certain "revolutionary" fervor' I keep talking about revolutionary romanticism and the need to be rooted with nose to the ground.. They deleted the one that I had posted on the spirit of the times.and uniform civil code.But I had saved a copy. I will develop and blog it. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA MORE MAIL   |   YOUR TAKE  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
D-12/85 OCT 18, 2012 03:49 AM PERMALINK	Are These The Good Or The Bad Taliban?   I would say that changes that came with eg Bhakti movement were reformations as they were not accompanied by anti- any body emotions. Brahmo Samaj reforms were unaccompanied by trying to be one up- or "competing" against West. It turned to Upanishads in a positive way. I agree about Wahhabism & deibandis, but do not forget Ahmedis. About Oedipus Complex. Freud got it wrong. Child sex abuse is not uncommon and what he thought was fantasy on part of children was sad fact of life for some. Who said Oedipus Complex wrt to religion? You do not mean Ramanujan's essay do you?But such themes do emerge in mythology. Yes; One effect of so called reformation in hinduism is taking mythology as history. Actually I do not see what needed to be reformed about hinduism. There were social practices that needed to go. I am quite OK with idol worship and not having one holy text etc. But then you probably talk from a Brahmin perspective and I from a Shudra one. What you cited as reformation would have be seen in my family .as fanatical and I share the same perspective. No my family was never into EVR etc, who were also seen as fanatical.  You know, I think I speak for the silent majority among hindus who are ill represented in this forum. R. SAROJA BOMBAY, INDIA MORE MAIL   |   YOUR TAKE  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE